MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
For now, the Trump administration has been ordered to halt its layoffs of federal workers during the government shutdown. A federal judge in California today sided with two labor unions and granted a temporary restraining order against the administration, which has sent layoff notices to more than 4,000 federal employees. President Trump has called these layoffs financially necessary, though he has also often spoken about cutting, quote, "Democrat programs." The unions contend that the Trump administration was using federal employees as political pawns. Well, I want to bring in Lee Saunders. He is the president of one of those unions, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Lee Saunders, welcome.
LEE SAUNDERS: Thank you for having me on the show.
KELLY: I am going to guess that you were happy with this judge's decision today. What's your reaction?
SAUNDERS: Well, we are extremely happy within AFSCME and AFGE, the two unions that filed this complaint. It really affirms that these threatened mass firings are illegal and blocks layoff notices from going out. And that's what the intent of the filing was. You know, I mean, look at what federal workers do every single day and the suffering that's taken place. They've already faced enough uncertainty from administration's relentless attacks on them. They are not being paid, or if they're working, they aren't being paid, or some have actually been sent home. So they're suffering right now...
KELLY: I want to put a little bit of a...
SAUNDERS: ...And it's unnecessary.
KELLY: Forgive my jumping in. Let me put a human face on this. The federal employees who had received layoff notices already, in these days since the shutdown began, the ones that are represented by your union, who are they? Where do they work in the government? Which agencies?
SAUNDERS: Well, they work all over the government. They work in the Department of Agriculture. They work in HHS. They work in the major facilities and major departments of the federal government, providing essential public services to the citizens of this country. And right now they have a reprieve because we were able to block this and continue to provide - they can continue to provide these essential public services to the citizens who rely upon this in our country.
KELLY: So what kind of guidance are you giving them? I mean, this is a temporary restraining order, a temporary reprieve. What happens now? What's your understanding?
SAUNDERS: Well, we are telling them that they can continue to work...
KELLY: Yeah.
SAUNDERS: ...That they cannot be blocked by the administration. They cannot be laid off based upon this order. We know that we're going to have to continue this fight every single day. We know the intent of this administration is to hurt federal workers and to destroy public services across this country. And we're going to do everything possible not to let that happen.
KELLY: Just to be clear who is impacted by this ruling today - this does not affect nonunion federal employees, right?
SAUNDERS: This affects the employees that are covered by the...
KELLY: Right.
SAUNDERS: ...Two unions represented, AFGE and AFSCME.
KELLY: So looking ahead and where this may go, we expect that the Trump administration will challenge this ruling. They did so in a related case earlier this year - the same judge, in fact, presiding. The Supreme Court waded into that. They allowed President Trump to move forward. If this case also ends up in front of the Supreme Court, would you expect the justices to rule any differently?
SAUNDERS: I don't even want to say what they will do, although there is a track record there, that they could continue to harm federal workers. But what we're going to do is we're going to file a preliminary injunction, which simply means an order to ensure that these mass firings stay blocked. If it goes to the Supreme Court, then that's another ballgame. But we're going to continue to keep fighting, regardless of what the Supreme Court does as far as making sure that these workers are made whole, that they continue to provide public services to the citizens of this country. And that's the important piece that we cannot forget, that we've got to continue to push for and support these workers who are being treated unfairly, but also providing those services that Americans rely upon.
KELLY: I guess - you know, big picture, the Trump administration is attempting to shrink the federal workforce. Administrations do that. They have the right to do that. Is there something specifically wrong with using layoffs to do so if the effort is to change the federal workforce?
SAUNDERS: No. I mean, that is their choice, but the way that they're doing this, and the way that they're doing it, is wrong. It's completely, completely wrong. And the courts are siding with us. The court in California sided with us. They cannot do this. They don't have the ability to do this. That's the challenge. That - and that's why we filed the case - the two unions filed the case. What's going to happen next is up to them. We expect that they're going to continue - the administration - to harm federal workers, to reduce public services and impact on every single American across this country, and we're going to continue to fight it.
KELLY: Lee Saunders, president of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Mr. Saunders, thanks for your time.
SAUNDERS: Thank you very much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
